Chaowen: 0:02
Hi everyone, this is Chaowen, recording in May 2023. After finishing the first season of the conductor’s podcast, I have decided to give this podcast project, a dedicated website with more user friendly functions. So now we have a brand new website called theconductorspodcast.com. Straightforward, right? And now we also have its own Instagram handle. It’s also the same @theconductorspodcast. So all the show notes have been moved to the new site, and I invite you to come check out all the resources and happy listening.

Rachel: 0:50
It’s lovely to be part of that development of young composers. And I think that that’s really important, particularly in the wind band world. As conductors, we’re really used to having control of what we want artistically in a performance or in a rehearsal setting. And it’s intimidating sometimes that somebody comes in and says, I don’t agree with that, or actually, I wrote it and that’s not what I meant.

Chaowen: 1:09
Hey there, welcome to The Conductor’s Podcast. I’m your host, Chaowen Ting, a conductor with over 20 years of experience working with professional symphony orchestras, opera houses, new music groups, and vocalists. I’m also founder of Girls Who Conduct and have mentored hundreds of conductors from across the globe. I created The Conductor’s Podcast to share all the behind the scenes secrets with you, while I interview conductors, musicians and business gurus from around the world. This is a space created for conductors, conducting student musicians and non musicians who are curious and interested in learning more about the profession, craft, industry, and business. Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money, hardship, growth, and the rollercoaster of a conducting career are all topics we discuss here. I will give you simple, actionable, step by step strategies to help you take action on your big dream, move through the fear that’s holding you back, and have a real impact. Now, pull up a seat, make sure you’re cozy, and get ready to be challenged and encouraged while you learn.

Chaowen: 2:16
Hi, there, welcome to another episode of The Conductor’s Podcast. I’m your host, Chaowen Ting, and I’m thrilled that you’re tuning in with me today. I know when it comes to podcasts, you have a lot of choices, so I’m really grateful to have you here with me.

Chaowen: 2:54
One of the great advantages of performing works by living composers is that we can ask them questions. A conductor’s job is largely deciphering the composer’s intentions, translating the knowledge into our gestures, and conveying [this] to the musicians to realize the music together. However, the composer’s intentions are not always clear from the score. It can come from editorial mistakes or the composer’s own inconsistencies. And of course, the more we know and learn about the composer’s own personality and background, the better we can speak their language for them. I remember this was one of the popular party questions for conductors’ drinking games: If you could ask Beethoven, Brahms, Boulanger, or any composer one question, what would that be? And I remember one fellow conducting student said that he wanted to ask Brahms [about] the love story with Clara Schumann, which was hilarious.

Chaowen: 4:02
However, not everyone loves working with living composers. There are many reasons. Some might feel that the newly composed works haven’t made it through the test of history–as we say in Chinese, that they’re not as worthy. Some people simply don’t enjoy working with composers, as the score and parts might not be as readily engraved in some cases. Some conductors do not like having another dictator to the rehearsal process. And there will be people who just tell you that they don’t like new music; it’s not their taste.

Chaowen: 4:51
However, my guest today Rachel Howley and I will share our experience working with composers on premieres and beyond, and we both found this process really rewarding, especially when you are working with educational ensembles. Even if you work primarily with professional groups–remember, all music was once new. If orchestras in Beethoven’s time weren’t kin to programming new works, we wouldn’t have so many masterworks now.

Chaowen: 5:35
Rachel Howley is a music educator, conductor, and researcher. She is the founding Director of Grace Academy at Grace Lutheran College, a leading educational institution in performing arts in Queensland, Australia. She is also a conducting staff with the Queensland Wind Orchestra and regularly guest conducts throughout the area.

Chaowen: 6:39
Rachel is a current Doctor of Musical Arts candidate, studying conducting with Dr. Peter Morris at the Queensland Conservatorium Griffith University. Her research explores the role of the conductor in championing the wind band works of Australian female composers. She is also an active advocate for encouraging diversity and fair gender representation through the selection of repertoire. Through her research, she has commissioned several new works and facilitated partnerships between emerging composers and Australian publishing companies.

Chaowen: 6:23
Welcome to the show, Rachel, I’m so thrilled to welcome you. And I can’t wait for you to share your story and experience with my audience.

Rachel: 6:31
It’s great to be here. This is exciting. This is my first podcast.

Chaowen: 6:35
That’s so exciting. So before we get started, though, will you give everybody a brief intro, just a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are now?

Rachel: 6:44
Yeah, sure. Well, I am from Australia, if you couldn’t tell from my accent. And I have grown up here, and I’m from Brisbane, which is Queensland, which is one of the northern states. We have beautiful weather, by the way. So I started out as a high school music teacher nearly 20 years ago now, and started off as a classroom music teacher. We have classroom music, and then we also have instrumental music, which is separate in Australia. And so I moved over into instrumental music, and conducting bands and things like that. And that’s what I still do as part of the things I do. And so I’m a high school band director as well. I am also a guest conductor, and I’m a part of the Young Conservatorium program, which is a primary school and high school program for musicians here, run through the Conservatorium here, and I’m also currently enrolled in a Doctor of Musical Arts and Conducting at the Queensland Conservatorium as well. So that’s kind of what I do. And I guess I’ve got here through my research, mostly. My master’s research was looking at women conductors, with the stereotyping and all those sorts of things. And so that then progressed on to my doctoral research, which is looking at our roles as conductors in helping women composers to achieve gender parity, and particularly looking at wind bands, mainly because that’s where most of our Australian children start their musical journey. So that’s where we can make the greatest impact.

Chaowen: 8:30
Now that’s wonderful. So I’m just curious, because I’m not familiar with the Australian educational system. So for master’s and doctoral degree in conducting, is it research heavy? Do you have to, like take a lot of courses and write a big dissertation?

Rachel: 8:50
Yes, it is a little bit different here. I did a master’s of music studies in instrumental pedagogy. I actually, at that point, didn’t know I wanted to be a conductor. I was very much focused on pedagogy and music education and those sorts of things. I didn’t think I’d ever be able to be a conductor, other than what I was doing in schools, and then I went to a great conducting masterclass with John Lynch, you may have heard of him? He was in Australia; he’s back in the US now. [He’s a] Lovely man who was in Sydney, did great things for Australia. And anyway, I went to his conducting workshop, and he said, You could do a doctorate in this. So now I am, and a doctorate can be–you have to do some research in it. So my dissertation is going to be fairly big. It’s fairly research heavy, but some people do more performance as part of it. But yes, we have to do research, but the Doctor of Musical Arts has to be tied to our professional practice as well, so.

Chaowen: 10:01
But I’m so curious about this conductor’s mindset. So what do you think kind of changed after you decided that now you’re a conductor or you’re becoming a conductor, not just a music educator? Did you change your approach in rehearsal, for example? Now [that] you’re a conductor, do you rehearse high school musicians differently from before, when you thought you were a teacher?

Rachel: 10:25
Absolutely. Yeah, I think so. I think that that journey that I started back then, until now, has been really good for me because I’ve become more of a leader on the podium, as opposed to a teacher on the podium. And I think teaching from the podium, especially when you’re working with children, is really important too. It’s a whole skill set in itself. But I think that I know how to communicate that better through gesture, and so I’m not talking as much on the podium. I think that’s more engaging anyway, and it makes me a better educator at the same time. So a big part of my journey is learning how to, I guess, be emotionally vulnerable and open on the podium so that I can lead my students better. And I think maybe that came from the confidence of knowing that I could do it. And you know, like, I guess that’s a long journey, isn’t it, for a lot of us?–to get to that point where we’re happy to maybe make mistakes and look silly on the podium.

Chaowen: 11:25
I’m smiling because this topic has come up so much in recent interviews, [and] everybody has had a different experience about having to open up at some point, and then kind of realizing it’s not as scary. But it is scary when you think about it, because I remember when I first started as a student, I always wanted to be good, be right. I wanted to do what my teacher was telling me to do, and do the right things. But I was not focusing on music making or connecting with the musicians at all. I just wanted to be good.

Rachel: 11:11
Yes, that’s exactly what I was doing. When I started this doctorate, I had so many conversations with my conducting teacher about this. And it was, we laugh a little bit about it. But I mean, obviously, we’re still working on these things as we go along. But I think, yeah, I was the same. I just wanted to do it properly and right. And I didn’t want to make a mistake. And I was thinking so much on the podium that I wasn’t making music with the ensemble.

Chaowen: 11:51
But really, it comes with time and experience, because you have to become used to your tools. I hate the word, but you kind of have to be more natural and acquainted with your tools, so you’re not thinking about your technique, like ‘how do I cut off here?’ Then you can pass beyond that and really think about ‘how can I connect with the musicians?’ But don’t worry, because we are baby conductors. You know, like when you think about someone studying violin for just two years, they’re learning scales, they’re learning their shifts [and] their fingerings, [so] when they are playing, of course, they’re thinking about where to place their bow. And when you were just starting conducting, we expect people with just one or two years [of] education to be able to conduct like a huge repertoire, which is a lot to take on. So really be graceful with yourself and know [that] you will get there. Just be patient with yourself.

Chaowen: 12:49
But I know we’re talking about working with composers in today’s episode. Can you talk a little bit more about the wind band literature for people who might not be as familiar with it? Because I know, at least compared to orchestral or operatic themes, wind bands naturally are more welcoming [of] new compositions, because you don’t have all the pieces from like two or 300 years ago.

Rachel: 13:19
Yeah, we don’t have the option in wind bands. And I do some orchestral work as well, but obviously, my background has all been in wind bands. And so I love doing new works with orchestras as well, because it’s, you know, I’m comfortable there, but it’s not as comfortable for orchestras, because I think in wind bands, our history is so short, really. And there’s only, you know, so much repertoire that’s been written, and a lot of our composers are still alive. So we have that advantage in that we can contact composers and work with them directly. And, you know, we don’t have that full, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years of history of music. And I guess that’s an advantage. And then obviously, sometimes, I guess it feels like a bit of a disadvantage, because orchestras do have this this wonderful tradition as well, which is, you know, it’s amazing as well. Yeah, so I guess that’s been part of where my background has been; I’ve done a lot of work with living composers. And then now, I’m very lucky that I’m getting to work actually in the same rehearsal room with them and working on commissions. And I think that’s really exciting, actually. I think that’s something that we’re missing out if we don’t give that a go, sometimes, as conductors, because I’ve learned a lot from having composers in the same room as me. It’s sometimes really scary, but it’s really worth it, I think.

Chaowen: 14:47
Yeah, and then before we even started recording this episode, we talked about [how] some conductors are hesitant or even reluctant to invite composers into this process of rehearsing and performing their pieces. And I know it could be controversial, or sometimes that if you have different ideas, you might end up spending more time talking to the composer, sometimes, than actually rehearsing the music, which, from your experience, what are some advantages that you’ve seen?

Rachel: 15:20
I think, from my students–from high school students, particularly–I think that’s where I’ve seen the most benefit. I think they’re younger, and they’re willing to take on things a little bit more. So they’re excited. If there’s a composer in the room, there’s like somebody different here. And so that makes it exciting. And I think that the best thing I’ve seen is students becoming more engaged with not just the music of that composer, but the music in other composers. I think they’ve suddenly realized that a real person wrote this music and had musical intentions, and they wanted to tell a story, or they wanted to, you know, create an impression or whatever. And I don’t think that some students ever really think of that until [then,] especially, you know, if they’re not serious musicians, if they’re just there because their friends are there, and they love to play–you know, it’s fun to play, but they’re not there because they want to make a career as a musician. And so they don’t think. So I think that’s one of the big things that I’ve seen.

Rachel: 16:17
The other thing I’ve found that has been really great is that because I work a lot with female composers, because that’s what my research is looking at, a lot of our female students have really identified with that and kind of realized that that there were female composers around. And so we’ve had a lot more interest in composition from both our female and male students. But I think that has really helped: having composers come into the room and being a part of world premieres that they’ve been able to do. And you know, that’s exciting for a 14 year old to say, I was part of that world premiere. So that’s been really great for engagement and motivation, I think.

Rachel: 16:17
As a conductor, I personally have learnt more about the music. And I think, therefore, I’ve been able to give better performances, and I’ve been able to connect better with the music. And then the students are the same at that point: they can connect better with the music because they understand the intentions of the composer better. And therefore we can communicate that better to the audiences.

Rachel: 15:30
So I think that that’s I mean, that’s obviously a great thing to be able to do, because we know exactly what that composer was thinking when they wrote that piece of music. The other thing that has been really great is working with young composers. So part of what we do as postgraduate conductors at the Queensland Conservatorium is we work with undergraduate composers in a project each year, where they get an opportunity to write an orchestral piece, or a band piece. And or both of them, part of what we get to do is get feedback about, you know, whether this will work or it won’t work or ask questions so that they can clarify some things. And so that’s been really great, too, because it’s, it’s lovely to be part of that development of young composers. And I think that that’s really important, particularly in the wind band world, where we don’t have many women at all writing for the medium. And it is [something] different–it doesn’t get taught at universities here anywhere. I’m not sure if it does in the US. But writing for wind band doesn’t really get taught, so that sort of composing element being part of that too is really exciting.

Chaowen: 18:28
Yeah, certainly, I’ve only been to two conservatories here in the US. So I can only speak from my experience, but I felt [that] a lot of the composers do not get to write or learn to write for large ensembles, because they didn’t have anyone to practice on. So a lot of them will write for, like single voice, because it’s much easier to find a vocalist friend to sing something for you. Or [they’ll] write for chamber music, because when you have to put together a recital, that’s kind of like the most convenient and most assessable medium. And I’ve done those composer readings, but they were often so short that you can’t really give them any feedback and they just wanted to have a recording kind of demoing their music. And yeah, there was, like, always this weird atmosphere because they were in such a rush: they wanted to have the best version of their music while you try to rehearse everything.

Chaowen: 19:28
But for anyone who is not used to having a composer present, can you can talk a little bit about the process of bringing a composer to your rehearsal, and when you do, how often? Like, how many rehearsals from the first one to the last one, or do you only invite them when you have rehearsed a little bit?

Rachel: 19:52
I think it’s a bit different for everyone. I find that I like to have the composer come in after we’ve read it and rehearsed it a little bit, so that we are still learning it, but we know enough that nothing’s gonna go wrong (or terribly wrong, anyway)–but at the point where we haven’t got so ingrained in how we want to play it or how we think it should be played, that the ensemble still able to move a little bit on some of those things a little bit more successfully. So it’s probably about a third of the way through the rehearsal process. I think it usually, you know, depending on what it is, but all the last big premiere I did was with a tertiary group: I think we had nine rehearsals, and she came in in the third rehearsal for a good chunk of time, and we read it with her and she gave feedback. And then she came in again, the day before the concert, just to listen again and give any last feedback that she wanted to give as well. But it also depends on the composer, because some composers come in and just say, yeah, I like everything you’re doing. Yep, that’s wonderful. And, and that’s it. And then other composers have really set ideas about how they want things done. And that is great, but also can be really challenging in a rehearsal process.

Chaowen: 21:13
So when you work with composers overseas, do you kind of try to Zoom or Skype them in?

Rachel: 21:19
Yeah.

Chaowen: 21:19
And like, what kind of challenges might you have? Because like, I’ve tried that before, but then it turned out like the laptop microphone doesn’t pick up the entire sound, or the composer will be commenting on things that they couldn’t hear but that were actually happening in the room, for example.

Rachel: 21:40
Yeah. I mean, that’s always the challenge; it’s obviously better if you can have somebody in the room. But more recently, obviously, we haven’t had much travel happening within Australia. And so the last premiere was with my high school band, and our composer was in Sydney interstate and the borders were closed. So we couldn’t [have her come in person], she had to come via Zoom. And we just tried a few places that we could, you know, put the laptop so that the microphone was working as best as possible. And then I think it worked okay within that situation. And I think having somebody there is better than not having them there. But I guess you just have to work around the technology constraints.

Chaowen: 22:19
Yeah, I think another option is, I have done that for some composers, because they really wanted to hear the process. So I will record it. Like I will record around through kind of the beginning of the reading part. And then kind of in the middle, I Zoom call the composer, just to have a chat with the students so they can ask questions, or like, they can share how the creative process was. It’s always fascinating to have that conversation.

Rachel: 22:48
That’s right. And the other thing I’ve done is recorded it and then asked questions into the camera at the time, like played something and then asked, is this how you want it, or do you want this? And then they’ve responded later on. That’s worked as well, because then they get a better quality recording. But also you can ask the questions you need to ask at the time that you’re playing it as well.

Chaowen: 23:58
Yep. But what Rachel and I are trying to do is to encourage everybody [and show] that this is not as hard as you thought. And if the composers can afford to come or they live nearby, that’s the best. But if not, even just having a Zoom conversation now is totally awesome and would really benefits the musicians from a lot of different angles. But now, let’s jump back to having them in the rehearsal room. And it can sometimes be challenging, as they say that they can ask for nothing or for a lot of things. So what are some tips that worked for you or [helped you to] better navigate?

Rachel: 24:37
The hardest thing that I find is getting exact tempi. Some composers really love exactly where they have it. And I mean, that’s great, because they know exactly what they want from their music. And so I find that challenging because I will feel like it sits somewhere maybe and they feel it’s sits somewhere else and so that negotiation sometimes has to happen. I think that having a chance to sit down beforehand and have a chat about it before you’re in the rehearsal room is really helpful, because you can have a conversation around what boundaries you’re comfortable with. Like I’m really okay now nowadays with the composer saying, I didn’t really like how you did that, like I don’t mind that–I’m quite happy for the ensemble to see that conversation happening, but I know a lot of people aren’t aren’t okay with that. And I would rather that happen somewhere else and I think you’ve got to know what you’re comfortable with, or what you’re not going to take personally as well. Like, if you’re not comfortable with that you have to set that up earlier, before the the process. And you know, you could say, is it okay if we play the whole piece? I often do this: I set boundaries of what I think might work best and I talk to the composer, make sure they’re happy with it. And then I talk to the ensemble in front of the composer and say this is what we’re going to do; this is that process. So that everybody knows what’s going to happen, because I’ve found that the students often want to give feedback as well to the composer. And sometimes that’s really useful, because there might be something in that part that, you know, doesn’t look right, or, especially when you’re working with younger composers who aren’t very experienced, there might be something that’s just a bit weird or too high for whatever, you know, you’ve just got to know what your boundaries and what the composer’s boundaries are too–some composers aren’t comfortable with getting feedback in front of the ensemble. And so, you know, you go and talk to them privately off to the side or something like that. But yeah, having those boundaries in place is really, really healthy. I think and knowing what you’re comfortable with in the rehearsal process, as well, is really helpful. I think that most composers like getting a bit of feedback from ensembles, but I think ensembles can get a little bit, especially young ensembles, can get a little bit heated in certain things. And so you do have to manage that. I think that as the conductor, I think that’s our job to manage that and make sure that their expectations of what they’re allowed to say to a composer is, you know, is spoken about as well. Yeah, I mean, I think that’s the big one. As conductors we’re really used to having control of what we want artistically in a performance or in a rehearsal setting. And it’s intimidating sometimes that somebody comes in and says, I don’t agree with that, or actually, I wrote it. And that’s not what I meant, [that] sort of thing. So yeah, I mean, I think it’s also okay to ask them, Do you think this will do? Would you like me to try it like this? I think I feel like it might sit better at this tempo, or I feel like, might feel better if the horns are louder here or something like that. And often that works. And they will take that feedback on, but there’s been times where certain composers I’ve worked with have said, No, that’s not what I want at all. And that’s what you have to do, especially if they’re going to be at the premiere. But if not, then you know, that’s okay, too. I think you also need to take into account the level of experience of the composer.

Chaowen: 28:08
Yeah. And then the thing about tempi is, it’s something that I found the most interesting, because it could go in so many different directions. I remember when I was doing my master’s study. And so like for a master’s program, we had to do six different little performances. So like they were assignments. So we did one overture, one concerto, one symphony, one operatic, and there was always one new music. So I was assigned a piece that was written by one of the composition faculty members at the conservatory. So I had been rehearsing with my conducting teacher who was the music director of the new music ensemble there. And she just did, like, the premiere in Argentina or somewhere. So she knew the piece like inside out, so I was freaking out. And she kept saying that my tempi was too slow. But I said, we’re [still] in that rehearsal process. We can’t go that fast yet, because we’d lose a lot of the clarity. But she was like, No, no, this is not the right feel. And if you don’t bring it up to the tempo, then the phrasing and the structure was just all wrong. Until the composer came, kind of as you said, during the third or the fourth rehearsal. And he was like, I don’t want it that fast. I was very young when I wrote this. But now I’d rather hear everything clearly. So you can go as slow as you want.

Rachel: 29:37
Yeah, absolutely. I think that composers sometimes, you know, have heard it on their computer. And it’s been a certain speed, and the clarity is very different listening to the MIDI, even if they’ve got good sounds. It’s very different to an orchestra in our hall that’s a bit more live or, you know, you’ve got to also match the acoustics of your venue. And there’s so many things that can contribute to tempi, really.

Chaowen: 30:06
Yeah. And then as you said, you really need to take the composer’s experience and personality into consideration, because I’ve found a lot of the more experienced or mature composers, they understand that they will have more performances. So it’s only one version of how this music was sound. They are very often more flexible. Sometimes if I need to change the instrumentation, I will always ask for permission first. I say hey, I’m really sorry, I don’t have English horn this semester. Can I just leave that out or have some important cues played by someone else? A lot of them will say okay, and others say no, I would rather not. Or sometimes they’ll come back and say, Oh, I have time now; I can just do a rearrangement for you. So make sure that you really communicate with a composer, and with some younger composers, I should say, sometimes they’re not sure what they really want, or they’re really fixed in their ideas. Because as we say, they’ve heard it in their mind for so long, and when it’s not anywhere close to what they imagined the sound [would be like], it’s very frustrating.

Rachel: 31:15
Kind of like when you’re a young conductor, you think, you know, it’s exactly like this. And you know, then as we get more experienced, we realize that, you know, things change.

Chaowen: 31:25
This is what you said, but I really want to encourage everyone to work with young composers, because just like us, you only learn from making mistakes. And it’s embarrassing for us to make mistakes in front of the ensemble. It’s embarrassing for composers too, but that’s how you learn, because they have to go through the process of writing unplayable notes. Whether that doesn’t exist, or it’s not really practical in the tempo, or something that sounds fabulous on the computer with a MIDI file, but it’s extremely difficult.

Rachel: 32:01
Yes, yeah, I remember, this is, I guess, a little bit of a tangent. But I remember as an undergraduate player, playing in those sessions, and some of the things that I remember being asked to play–I was a clarinet major, and being asked to play like the very top C on clarinet, because this piece was meant to be about mobile phones, and it was meant to trigger different mobiles…it was like, really, you know, back then, not everyone had [mobile phones], you know, quite as much as now. And it was this cutting edge thing, and I said, Are you sure you really want it this high?–like, that’s really high on clarinet. And it was just this clarinet playing this, that was meant to, like, interrupt each time a phone rang or something, I can’t remember. And they’re like, No, no, I definitely want it. And I remember just thinking, this is like unplayable, you just can’t just out of nowhere, just go, “do this”. And now you know, you look back and it just–people learn, and we all do these things that are crazy in whatever our area is, as conductors or as composers. And I think that you’re right, everybody just needs to learn. And we all get a place. And if we think as conductors, we can make that environment, a safe environment for composers to learn in. And I think that that’s really important, because it’s only going to help our ensembles get new, great repertoire. As conductors, we do have fairly good networks, and we do have good connections. And so we actually can help young composers, you know, in their careers, and then we can help them learn more, but also connect with other conductors and learn to build their careers. And I think that that’s a really great thing that we can do as as conductors as well, outside of our musical responsibilities.

Chaowen: 33:44
And I’ve also felt that now looking back, it actually was a good practice for learning interpersonal skills–kind of how you negotiate your artistic visions and decisions while trying to balance how you serve your ensemble, because sometimes composers will ask for things that are maybe beyond what your ensemble can do. Then kind of trying to be respectful, but protect your ensemble in a sense.

Rachel: 34:13
Yes, especially when you’re working with educational level ensembles because they aren’t able to do everything. And you know, the younger you go, obviously the more that is, but I agree. Yeah, absolutely. That is our job to be that mediator at times as well.

Chaowen: 34:26
Yeah. And then I just remembered, when I did my masters, we did a composition reading. And the composer is a percussionist herself. So she kept writing 32nd or 64th notes, but really short. And we kept telling her, it’s so hard to read, in a sense, when you have so many like tails, and then with all the different rests that come after it, when it’s really just a really short note. And we tried to convince her, you can even just write an eighth note and write “short”; that will be the same sound. And she felt very strongly, No, no, that was not what I wanted. And this is actually so funny: I worked with her 10 years later, after we’d both graduated and had jobs and had been in the field for a lot longer. And I premiered a piece of hers actually for wind band–I conducted wind band for four years–and I brought her and we were talking, and I said, Hey, do you remember the piece? She was like, Yeah, yeah. And she was like, Now I don’t think it was a very good piece. But I remember that argument. (laughs)

Rachel: 35:42
Some of the composers that I get to work with, and I have so much respect for their work, but we have these back and forth conversations about things, and I think that’s really good. I think that that collaboration brings out the best in everybody. As long as it’s done respectfully, I think you can really bring out the best in everybody in that situation.

Chaowen: 36:00
So, one last question I wanted to ask. So for someone who is not used to programming pieces by living composers, because I know even for wind band, there are some standards or classics, like Frank Ticheli, or like Eric Whitacre, like, where do they start? Where can they start looking for good music that is suitable for their ensemble, but also kind of be diverse?

Rachel: 36:24
Yeah, I mean, that is one of the challenges, isn’t it? It’s hard to find that stuff sometimes. And there’s some great databases, there’s the Composer Diversity Institute: it takes you to composer websites, [and] it’s got a lot of works on there. And there’s another one called And They Were Heard, which is a great one. Jodie Blackshaw–for wind band, anyway–Jodie Blackshaw has ColourFULL Music. It’s a website where it’s all about diversity, and it’s got some great resources on there that is obviously education level, but it does go right through from young bands through to professional level bands, where there’s great example programs where you can have a program that has something really traditional in it, but you also add in some really new music as well to kind of balance that out. But she also has a database of women composers as well for wind bands that has all their works. And every single one of them has a link to an audio file and a score, sample score, and websites and things like that, which is really good. No other website that I found has had quite that much detail that you can just, you know, access it so easily. But ask your colleagues, I think that we forget that we can learn a lot from our colleagues who are programming really diversely. I’ve got great colleagues that I go to and say, I’m really looking for a four minute piece that this ensemble could play. And I would like it to be an Australian composer or whatever, because we obviously like to have Australian composers, which, you know, you guys should explore as well. So we have a great website called The Australian Music Center. And you go on there, and there’s all these composers for all sorts of things. You can choose chamber music, you can choose, you know, orchestral, or whatever. And you can go in there and search on there.

Chaowen: 36:24
Yeah, I love that site. It’s like the Australian composers’ center, or I know there is also one for Canadian composers. It’s just like, really wonderful. And then I think, for a lot of them, the center even does the distribution of the parts and score for this. So like the composers don’t have to be self published so that they can focus more on composing.

Chaowen: 38:39
So if you’re listening from the car or at the gym, don’t worry, you can find all the resources, I’ll put them in the show notes. And you can find them at chaowenting.com/11. Before we end today’s episode, Rachel, I wanted to–I’ll put that in the shownotes as well–but I wanted people to hear it from you: where can people find you?

Rachel: 38:59
Yeah, Facebook and Instagram and Twitter. I’m on LinkedIn as well. My handle is @rachelhowleyau, for Australia. And I think that’s the same on Twitter and LinkedIn. And then just rachelhowley on Facebook.

Chaowen: 39:18
Yeah, so go ahead and find Rachel and just say hi, say that you heard her on the podcast. Thank you so much, Rachel, for joining me today.

Rachel: 39:28
That is my pleasure. Thank you for having me. And this, it wasn’t as scary as I thought it would be, this whole podcast. Thank you.

Chaowen: 39:37
No, just like conducting it’s not as scary [as it sounds]. And also, yeah, and also for programming pieces by living composers, it’s not as scary as it sounds like.

Rachel: 39:50
Absolutely not. Easy.

Chaowen: 39:52
But thank you so much, Rachel. So here you have it. And I hope that you are inspired, or at least encouraged to try a work by a living composer, starting with your next concert. If you’re still uncomfortable bringing in a composer into the preparation process, at least try and program one new piece. There is a lot of great music worth programming and simply to be heard by a broader audience. I will share with you my story, as I wasn’t one of those who was just born into loving new music. I, like many classical musicians, grew up listening and playing all the classics of Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Tchaikovsky, and so on. Of course, I worked with composers from time to time, helping fellow students out with their recitals, for example, but the turning point of me going into this so-called “new music business” was when I was doing my DMA in Conducting at Eastman School of Music. At Eastman, we have a composition competition every year, and the winning composer’s work will be performed by one of the orchestras. It was always the newbie conductor in the studio who gets the honor to conduct the premiere. And when I was a first year DMA student, it was obvious that this was what I was going to do. So I conducted Tommy Dorothy’s “Three Pieces for Orchestra”, which was actually a very nicely composed symphonic suite when he was only an undergraduate student. At the performance, the then-head of the composition department really loved my work. He went to my teacher, Neil Varone, and told him that he was really pleased that he could see the music in my conducting. And since then, I became the go-to person whenever there were contemporary works. So I conducted more composition readings, an organ concerto by William Bolcom, and eventually led me to landing the job as the music director for NANOWorks Opera, which is short for North American New Opera Workshop, a festival focusing on new chamber operas by North American composers. So I can assure you that the taste and skills can be acquired, as long as you put time and effort into learning the music. And this experience actually helped me in conducting traditional repertoire, as it gives me a chance to see music from a different perspective, and that I have a unique understanding of how sound can be structured. Have you worked with composers on premieres or even just a regular performance? I’d love to hear your story with the good, the bad, and the ugly. You can DM me on social media. I am @tingchaowen on Instagram and @chaowentingconductor on Facebook. If you post something, don’t forget to use the hashtag, #theconductorspodcast. Again, don’t forget that I am hosting a monthly giveaway of an hour of free consultation with me starting in December. All you have to do is to leave a review of the podcast on why you love the show, share the screenshot of the review, and tag me on social media, and you will be entered into the monthly giveaway for a free hour consultation. During the time with me, you will have a chance to ask any questions you might have about conducting or the business. You can also get an extra entry every month as long as you share the podcast post and tag any friend. So go ahead and subscribe and leave a review if you have been enjoying listening. Okay, I’ll see you next week at the same time, same place. Bye for now.