Michelle: 0:00
I, you know, went to undergraduate graduate school and went to conservatories and I did not learn about very many women composers or composers of color at all. You know, in the classical music canon, there are so many beautiful pieces inspired by nature, or that directly addressed humanity’s relationship with the environment. And we think it makes sense not to play these pieces just for entertainment, but to play them with calling attention to the climate crisis in mind.

Chaowen: 0:31
Hey there, welcome to the conductor’s podcast, I’m your host Chaowen Ting, a conductor with over 20 years of experience working with professional symphony orchestras, opera houses, new music groups, and vocalists. I’m also founder of Girls Who Conduct and have mentored hundreds of conductors from across the globe. I created The Conductor’s Podcast to share all the behind the scenes secrets with you while I interview conductors, musicians, and business gurus from around the world. This is a space created for conductors, conducting students, musicians, and non musicians who are curious and interested in learning more about the profession, craft, industry, and business.

Chaowen: 1:18
Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money, hardship, growth and the roller coaster of a conducting career are all topics we discuss here. I will give you simple, actionable, step-by-step strategies to help you take action on your big dream, move through the fear that’s holding you back, and have a real impact. Now, pull up a seat, make sure you’re cozy, and get ready to be challenged and encouraged while you learn.

Chaowen: 1:52
Hey there, welcome back to Episode No. 3 of the conductor’s podcast. I’m your host Chaowen Ting, and I’m so glad you chose to join me here today. If you’re listening to this podcast and are loving it, can I ask you to please share this podcast with one friend, a fellow conductor, a musician or even a family member that will be interested in knowing more about this profession. As conductors, concert programming, planning and curating is a really important part–but something we rarely learned at schools, because we are often given conducting assignments by our teachers and had very limited rehearsal time to prepare for a performance.

Chaowen: 2:36
This is a rather complicated topic, as a lot of things need to be taken into consideration when you program, like the length of the performance, how many rehearsals you have, how many players, and what’s the instrumentation of the ensemble? Where is the venue and its acoustics and difficulty level for the ensemble? Do you want something that can sound well or will challenge your musicians? Any important things that you want to project throughout the season? Any guest or soloist for a concerto and what’s your budget for rental and music purchase? I know this list can sound very daunting. Well, you’re in for a treat, my friend, because my guest today, Michelle Rofrano, is going to walk you through her process for deciding and researching repertoire for PROTESTRA, a coalition of classical musicians who protest injustice and raise awareness through benefit performances. I first met Michelle when we joined the Dallas Opera Hearts Institute for Women Conductors in 2016. And Michelle is also a core member of the Girls Who Conduct 10. She is the founder and artistic director of PROTESTRA, and for the current 2021-2022 season, she also serves as the resident music director for the City Lyric Opera in New York.

Chaowen: 4:09
Hello, welcome to the show, Michelle! I’m so thrilled to welcome you here. And I can’t wait for you to share your story and experience with my audiences.

Michelle: 4:18
Thank you Chaowen for having me. Hi, everyone. I’m Michelle Rofrano. I’m very honored to be here today talking to my wonderful friend and colleague Chaowen.

Chaowen: 4:27
So before we get started, though, would you please give everybody a brief intro?

Michelle: 4:32
Sure. So I am a freelance opera and orchestral conductor currently based in New York City. And a bit about my background: well, I grew up listening to classical music and particularly opera with my grandparents who immigrated here from Sicily, and I played piano from a young age and actually never thought I’d be a professional musician. But later in high school, early college, I ended up going to be a music major, a piano major at Rutgers University. I really liked the piano, but I never liked the idea of being a solo pianist. I love the idea of collaborating with others. And I really loved playing with orchestra whenever they needed to a pianist to play. Orchestra doesn’t always need a pianist, so then I got this idea that, well, how do I be in orchestra full time? I like being in charge of things. Why don’t I be the conductor of the orchestra? And so after I got that idea, I kind of informally got my musician friends together in college and paid them in pizza and wine to like, you know, play in an orchestra and learn how to conduct and I did conducting workshops and I was bitten by the conducting bug and the rest is history. So then I pursued my Master’s in conducting at the Peabody Conservatory. And since then I have freelanced as mostly an opera conductor though I do love conducting orchestral music. I’ve worked with Spoleto Festival USA, Glimmerglass Festival, the Juilliard vocal department, among others, and I’m currently the new resident music director of City Lyric Opera, a new up-and-coming opera company in New York City founded and run by women. And I am also the founder and music and artistic director of PROTESTRA, an activist orchestral ensemble that educates audiences about issues of social justice through benefit concerts.

Chaowen: 6:19
This is so exciting, and I know PROTESTRA was your brainchild. So could you tell us a little bit about how you started this project, and how everything all came together through COVID, this global pandemic?

Michelle: 6:35
Sure. So PROTESTRA actually started as kind of a one time event ad hoc ensemble in early 2017. This was–so let’s see, this was January, February 2017, right after the federal Muslim ban. That was really awful, really xenophobic, and that many people, many musicians and artists, I know really disagree with, and a lot of us were on social media, you know, ranting about how we didn’t agree. And I thought, why don’t we actually use our skills and talents to make a statement and try to do something for good to speak out against this, instead of, you know, just posting on social media, let’s use our art to bring people together about this issue we care about. So several musician colleagues and I organized a an orchestral concert that we called #NOBAN. And we hosted this benefit concert, the first to protest the Muslim ban, and to raise funds for refugee aid organizations. We programmed music, themed around immigration and belonging and acceptance and you know, overcoming obstacles. And it was a really successful concert, and a lot of people found it to be really meaningful. And this group of organizers and I discussed: Oh, we should have another concert. Maybe we should make this a regular group. What could we call ourselves? Haha, maybe a portmanteau of “protest” and “orchestra”: PROTESTRA. And we formally called ourselves this. And then late 2019, early 2020, I was planning to be working back in New York City for the foreseeable future and traveling a little bit less. So I reached out to this original group of musician organizers again and said, Hey, do you all want to actually make PROTESTRA a thing? You know, I still think concerts like this that advocate for social justice are needed more than ever, and you know, we should get a concert together. So we convened in early 2020 and started to plan perhaps some Spring 2020 concerts, and then COVID hit. So we continue with our plans to you know, make this an official organization even through COVID. We incorporated as a nonprofit, we applied for a 501(c)(3) status. And we started to create and brainstorm, you know, all the musical projects we could, even, you know, despite the pandemic, despite the fact that we have to distance. So several projects we’ve had thus far since we’ve incorporated in 2020 was we had a virtual concert for Black Lives in September 2020, held in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement, and we raised funds for organizations that advocate for racial equality. And it featured some live chamber and solo performances over Zoom and then some pre recorded orchestral projects that we created–all works by black composers. And one of the orchestral projects we created was I believe the first virtual orchestral recording of a piece by Florence Price we did the second movement of Florence Price’s Fourth Symphony, and that so far has reached over 25,000 viewers online, which is which is really cool. We were really proud of that project. Also in 2020, we created several social media initiatives featuring musician performances and sharing their advocacy for change in classical music and beyond. In 2021, in the spring, we held a live chamber music concert that we called Heritage Against Hate. And it was held in May in AAPI Heritage Month and it was programmed to speak out against the rise in anti-Asian sentiment and violence that was really scarily happening throughout the country, and especially in New York City, this past spring. And so it featured works by Asian composers and featured many performers of the Asian diaspora sharing, you know, their thoughts and experiences. And it was a really, really meaningful event. And we are currently planning our first in-person (since we’ve incorporated) orchestral concert for this coming October. So in about a month from when we’re recording this, it’ll be held October 30, in New York City, and it’s going to be an orchestral concert for climate action. So we’re very excited about that.

Chaowen: 10:57
This all sounds so exciting. And I love that really witty name of “protest” and “orchestra” like the “protestra”. I’ve been wondering why you always put the accent on on the first syllable. Now I understand. I always thought it’s proTESTRA, but it’s [actually] PROtestra.

Michelle: 11:15
Yeah, exactly.

Chaowen: 11:19
So I felt this is such a timely subject to talk about, because for this past few years, people are calling for more diversity, more inclusion or more relevance, in concert experience[s] from the classical music world. We had been a little bit in the IV towel and just doing our own great master works. But a lot of people felt that they got stuck, they never learned any repertoire outside of the canon, or when they wanted to do something that is more relevant and reflective to the social waves, they don’t know where to get started. So could you maybe talk to us a little bit about like programming and how you find music to perform? How do you know which one is suitable for your ensemble, for example?

Michelle: 12:11
Absolutely. And you bring up a good point, Chaowen, about these necessary–and you know, better late than never–but still very overdue calls for more diversity in the repertoire and in our performances and performers. And just, it’s important to be considering and listening to and promoting diverse points of view and experiences, you know, it makes our world a lot richer. I, you know, went to undergraduate, graduate school, went to conservatories. And, honestly, that wasn’t that long ago, and I did not learn about very many woman composers or composers of color at all. And, you know, I personally feel like I’m still doing a lot of catch up to learn about so many wonderful composers, both past and living who just have been overlooked for so long. But also learning about all of this music that we weren’t taught in conservatories is really exciting and eye opening, and like we’ve been missing out on so much good music, so it’s exciting to be able to research this. But, in terms of “researching”, there are many resources available of just composer databases, but also too so I guess, as the basis for programming every concert and I can tell you our step by step process for programming our upcoming concert for climate action. But I actually have volunteer musicians who make up our team of organizers for PROTESTRA. And several of them are very passionate about learning and researching new repertoire. And we all have a giant spreadsheet that we constantly add composers and pieces to–some chamber music, but largely orchestral music. And sometimes we have different themes that we can categorize. Like, maybe this could be good for this themed concert, or we have different composers from like different regions or from different backgrounds. And we really just kind of collect composers and listen out for compositions we really enjoy. So to tell you a bit about our upcoming concert for climate action. First in programming any concert, we start with a theme. So for this concert, we were inspired to advocate for action against the looming and current climate crisis by a lot of the recent extreme weather events throughout the country in the world that are really scary. And you know, in the classical music canon, there are so many beautiful pieces inspired by nature, or that directly addressed humanity’s relationship with the environment. And we think it makes sense not to play these pieces just for entertainment, but to play them with calling attention to the climate crisis in mind. Because we should all be working together to protect the beautiful landscapes depicted musically in so many of these beautiful and treasured compositions. So we first decide the basics: the length of the concert. Our format for concerts is about maybe 60 to 70 minutes of orchestral music. And then we also think it’s fun and varied and gives us more of a variety of composers to pull from to do about 15 to 25 minutes of chamber music to start off the concert. Then we decided our instrumentation. So for us, when we were planning this concert, we weren’t sure if we would have to space people out. And we still were really adamant about doing a full orchestra concert. But we were thinking–you know, we started playing this months ago–so we thought maybe we’ll have to hold it outside. Or if audiences still aren’t allowed to watch a live concert indoors, maybe we will just have to space everyone out within a big venue and live stream it instead of having a live audience. So you’re trying to go for the smallest standard orchestra possible. So it turned out to be about 45 musicians–which is still a lot of musicians, but it’s also possible to have an orchestra with many more musicians so we tried to stick with you know, strings, percussion and standard double winds (we have a couple pieces that have triple of a few winds, but we need to make that work for our program). So we decided that was our instrumentation and then we’re trying to find pieces. And this goes to programming any concert that any conductor can speak to, I’m sure you do this for all of your ensembles as well, Chaowen, is you look for kind of overlapping instrumentation–for, you know, similar works for the works in the same concert. So we decided that instrumentation and looked for pieces that now fit that mold. And we, you know, started doing a lot of listening and collected pieces and reviewed various composers and eras to come up with a diverse list of repertoire. And so again, using composer databases, just any composer that I am interested in. So for example, I’ve never performed a piece by Jessie Montgomery and I really want to, and a lot of her ones that could perform really frequently like a string orchestra pieces don’t necessarily have to do with nature or the environment. But what I do is if I like a composer, I’ll go to their website and check out what they’ve composed and maybe they have a piece about nature that isn’t as well known, but that would fit perfectly with my program. And it turns out, Jessie Montgomery does! She has a piece composed specifically speaking to the climate crisis called Caught By The Wind. And so it’s only been performed a handful of times (as far as we know) and we’re really excited to program that on this concert. And so the program we ended up coming up with, I’ll share with you: we have two classic canon compositions that you might learn about in your music history classes–one is The Moldau by Smetana and we are doing a portion of Beethoven’s Symphony No. 6, “Pastoral”, and so these are kind of like household name pieces that you know, if you like those pieces, hopefully you already know them, you’ll come to our concert. Then the rest of the pieces on the program are by living composers and are not as well known, but really deserve to be because they’re so good. The other two pieces for the orchestral portion of the program are Jessie Montgomery’s Caught By The Wind, and a piece called Earthbeat by Chinese Canadian composer Vincent Ho, and it is themed around humanity’s relationship with the earth and it was also composed in collaboration with First Nations Composer for musicians in Canada. And so it features a lot of First Nations indigenous rhythms and folk music and it’s a really, really cool piece. And then the two chamber music pieces that we decided to add to the program are: one is by Paola Prestini called Thrush Song, composed really recently in 2020. And so this will be not the premiere, but one of the first–the second or third, I believe–performance of this piece, and it’s for soprano, string trio, percussion, and electronics, and it’s based on letters written by Rachel Carson, biologist and author of Silent Spring, a 1962 work that was really pivotal in advancing the global environmental movement. And the other piece on our program, the second chamber work, is by emerging composer Lauren McCall. It’s called Power Kata, originally composed for clarinet quintet, that she has arranged for wind quintet and electronics. This will be a premiere of her new arrangement, and it is based on the flight patterns of monarch butterflies. And she’s an emerging composer who is currently a PhD student at Georgia Tech, and she’s actually one of our team members.

Chaowen: 19:47
I was just thinking, like, I think that’s my student!

Michelle: 19:50
So, fun story: I met her through Chaowen. So I was so grateful for that introduction, and so she has been a volunteer team member, one of our core members of PROTESTRA, and we’re really excited to play one of her pieces on this concert.

Chaowen: 20:08
That is so wonderful! So I did not know. So a little [while] back, because of the pandemic, I had to be teaching a lot of other people for the last year. And last fall, I was teaching a course called technology ensemble that is for graduate music technology students here at Georgia Tech to learn about a lot of things that you can do with technology and traditional performance and like anything in between and beyond. So I took advantage of everybody staying at home and connecting through Zoom and invited a lot of friends to speak to the class and Michelle Rofrano was one of the guests, and I’m so glad that Lauren and PROTESTRA just connected, and it seems like Lauren really found her passion and a place to have that realized. I’m so happy for her.

Michelle: 21:00
Yeah, no, I feel very fortunate to have connected with her through you and have her reach out. And so everyone by the way, check out Lauren McCall’s work. I cannot speak highly enough of her compositions–extremely talented musician with such an interesting and unique perspective and voice. So yeah, we’re thrilled to play our hopefully first of many pieces by her on this concert. And so yeah, that’s our program six pieces that we have, you know, two classic, Romantic era pieces and four contemporary pieces by living composers. Three-quarters of the contemporary composers are established and one-quarter of them is an emerging composer. Three out of six of the composers on this concert are people of color with black and Asian representation. Four out of six of the composers on this concert are women. Two out of the six pieces are specifically about climate change and environmental advocacy, which is the Montgomery and the Prestini. Two out of six are about humanity’s relationship with nature, the Ho and the Beethoven. Three out of six are about natural phenomena that we want to preserve–the McCall, Beethoven, and Smetana. You know, we don’t just want to play music centered around the theme of climate advocacy, [so] we are also donating a portion of ticket proceeds to two environmental justice organizations. One is the Environmental Defense Fund, and one is WE ACT, based in New York City. And we’re also going to be featuring some guest speakers who are experts in the field of climate science, who will share a bit with our audience about how they can live more sustainably, how they can advocate for climate action and environmental protection in their communities. And we also plan to provide, you know, resources for further watching and reading and learning to our audience. So we really just want to make this a wholesome, educational, interesting, and meaningful artistic and learning experience.

Chaowen: 23:01
Yeah, and my listeners, if you are driving in the car, if you’re like working out at the gym, don’t worry, we will have everything linked in the show notes, so you can check out all the links that Michelle was talking about and also get more information about PROTESTRA’s upcoming concert. Now let’s back up a little. We learned a lot about your process of programming for this particular concert. But there are so many databases now out there, some of them based on women composers, some of them for a broader underrepresented composers. But when you pull up data from a database, it’s a huge amount of information. Like do you just start randomly or you start picking out people that might sound interesting? Or like if you Google for pieces, what kind of keywords would you use? Would you just type “woman composer climate change”? That probably won’t give you the best results, right?

Michelle: 24:06
Yeah, to be honest, in those databases, I generally more target the demographic of composer, whether it’s I’m looking, you know, I don’t know any pieces about nature or climate change by a woman composer. So I’ll go look for women composers, maybe I’ll look for contemporary, maybe I’ll look for classical era. And I’ll try to narrow it down, you know, a bit, just so it’s not all the women composers who’ve ever existed. But you know, again, I already have some classical era pieces on this concert. So I’m ideally looking for a contemporary piece by a woman composer about nature or climate. So I might Google, I might search contemporary women composers, and then I’ll just start to go through the list. If there are some I know, then I can kind of quickly–I’ll say, oh, I like that composer, I’m going to look through this. I go to their website, I go through the list in that database, if it includes other compositions, and just look to see what exists. I’ll look them up on YouTube if it’s a very contemporary composer or SoundCloud because sometimes like, you know, not all very new compositions make their way to databases or to Wikipedia pages, you know, there’s constantly amazing new music being written and created. Or I’ll say, you know, I don’t know, any pieces off the top of my head, or I don’t know any about nature or climate change by Asian composers. And so I’ll go just look up Asian composers and do some listening. And often like, you can scan kind of by titles, you know, so if something is about, so if something is about a natural feature, I’ll just, I’ll go through their list of compositions by title. And then, you know, if composers on the website, a lot of them have program notes, or write about something that like, inspired the piece, and so then I’ll see if it fits thematically, and then I’ll make a list for listening. I will also say, it’s worth reaching out to composers, like living composers will want their music performed, you know, and often, they might have ideas. Maybe something’s not clear on their website, or maybe they have a new piece they didn’t put on their website yet. And so actually, for, you know, our premiere of the wind quintet by Lauren McCall, I went to her and said, I love your music. Do you have anything themed around nature or anything for this concert? Because some of the stuff she had sent me before, wasn’t around that theme. And she said, Oh, yes, I have a quintet that is the perfect theme that I’m really excited about. And I said, great. I don’t think we were planning to hire or contract five clarinetists for this concert (because it was originally composed for clarinet quintet). And she said, that’s fine, I’ve been wanting to arrange it for wind quintet anyway–I’ll arrange it for wind quintet. Perfect. And so we’re contracting musicians to play the quintet, but then also play in the orchestral portion of the program. And so a lot of times composers will have suggestions and, you know, maybe they can collaborate with you to create an arrangement or something that works for your instrumentation.

Chaowen: 27:07
Yes, Michelle says to reach out to composers, but I just want to preach one thing, when you reach out to composers, please do not say, Hey, I’m interested in your music, because I want to program pieces by underrepresented composers. Just say, I like your music. I think this is really cool. I want to program it. You don’t need to label people that’s making their value or worthiness because they are a certain group. Just value people for who they are.

Michelle: 27:40
Yeah, thank you for bringing up that point, Chaowen. And it seems like a minor difference, but it’s all the difference in the world to email someone, composer or conductor, and say, I want your music because you’re this demographic, like, that’s not great. No one wants to be judged based on their demographic, no one wants to be ignored based on their demographic, no one wants to only get opportunities based on their demographic and feel like they don’t deserve it. Like that’s, it doesn’t make sense. And that’s also not how you find the best music. But I, when I talk about saying, Oh, I don’t know any pieces about climate by women, composers of color, that’s more me acknowledging the gaps in my knowledge, you know, and so rather than say, Oh, I’m definitely going to going to program a piece by a woman of color. It’s not that–it’s that I have gaps in my knowledge, because there’s so many wonderful women composers, so many wonderful composers of color, so many wonderful women composers of color. And so it’s more about recognizing that there are so many different perspectives that are so important. And if you’re not aware of all of them, that’s fine. Just try to learn more.

Chaowen: 28:46
Yeah, I think that’s absolutely so important to know what you don’t know. So one last question before we let you talk [about] everything about your upcoming concert is: Do you have one tip for people wanting to organize concerts? Because you’ve been doing that for a while, apparently.

Michelle: 29:05
Well, so one thing that I have been learning and continuing to learn is, you really have to start in advance. Like, really start researching in advance, because researching a really varied and intentional and well thought out program–just doing the research takes a long time! And then you have the next steps of contacting a publisher for quotes and everything. And then an additional thing I will say–and many who performed contemporary or new music probably know this–but a lot of times there are a lot more costs involved with performing contemporary or new music that you have to rent from a publisher. So it’s not only the rentals, especially for orchestra parts, but often the sync license: if you want to live stream or if you want to post clips a bit online, you have to pay for a license–sometimes [just] to perform it–but almost always to be able to share it online. We are obviously a very new organization; we do not have a large operating budget. And a lot of organizations with small operating budgets or community orchestras often find themselves performing things that are public domain, like Beethoven–free to perform, you can find the parts on IMSLP, you could print them out. Of course, it’s nicer to have a nice set of parts, but you can perform this music for free. It’s definitely public domain. And so a lot of orchestras just perform things by older composers that everyone already knows that are public domain. And a lot of these works are great, and that’s wonderful. But there’s a lot of music we’re missing out on by contemporary composers and a lot more diverse composers if we only perform music in the public domain. And so I would say, like, so it’s even though our budget is not big, it’s really important for me to prioritize having a portion of our budget, like a significant portion of our budget, go towards performing contemporary music by diverse composers.

Chaowen: 30:54
And then I wanted to encourage everyone and every single organization out there, even if you have limited budget, you can start small, don’t let limited budget be your excuse for not taking action. So just don’t be shy, reach out to people, it’s not that hard. As soon as you start trying it, you’ll love that process, you’ll find to so many amazingly beautiful pieces out there that you have never experienced.

Michelle: 31:24
Totally. I was gonna say just to your point of, you know, like reaching out to composers, you can also negotiate with publishers, like, we definitely are spending an amount of money on, you know, rentals and sync licenses for some of the contemporary works. But our initial quote that publishers gave us, you know, we went back to them and said, Hey, we’re a new ensemble, and we’re advocating for this important cause. And it’s a benefit concert. And so all of our proceeds go directly to charities, or to covering musician fees, like we’re not making money from this, you know, and some of them came back to us with a lower cost. So you know, people do want to work with you, and they want to just get this awesome music program.

Chaowen: 32:03
Definitely. Now, before we close out this episode, Michelle, I want to thank you so much. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your upcoming concert and also where my listeners can find you? And I’ll put everything in the show notes, but I want them to hear it from you.

Michelle: 32:21
Sure, so as I mentioned earlier, but I’ll mention again, PROTESTRA will have its first live in-person orchestral concert since the pandemic, A Concert For Climate Action, on October 30 2021 in New York City at Broadway Presbyterian Church on 114th Street; it’ll be at 7pm. We will also be live streaming the concert. And you can learn more at our website www.protestra.org. Or you can follow us on Facebook (PROTESTRA), or on Instagram (@protestra_ is our handle). And we’re very active on social media; we love connecting with people there. We share about our upcoming concerts, but we also have a whole social media team that enjoys, you know, sharing diverse repertoire for listeners and talking about issues in the classical music industry and beyond. And speaking of our team, we are run by a team of organizers who are all volunteer musicians who really care about advocacy and advocating for change in and out of the classical music industry. And if you’re interested in ever collaborating with us or working with us or volunteering for us, please don’t hesitate to reach out on social media or via the forum on our website. We love making new connections and meeting new friends and finding like minded musicians who are really passionate about advocacy and using our platform to advocate for what we believe is important. You can follow me and my upcoming work at my website, michellerofrano.com. As I said, I am the music director of City Lyric Opera, and I’ll have some upcoming performances with them in New York over the season as well, so I’d love to see you there. Please get in touch. And yeah, I hope to see you at our next PROTESTRA concert.

Chaowen: 34:14
So thanks again for being here, Michelle. It’s such a pleasure, and I can’t wait to talk to you again soon.

Michelle: 34:20
Thank you so much, Chaowen.

Chaowen: 34:23
Okay, so there you have it. I mean, that woman’s brilliant, right? So if you’re feeling excited, if you’re feeling fired up, and you’re ready to change your programming, get started and decide on a theme that you are passionate about, a topic that you stand behind unapologetically, and something that speaks to your heart. I can’t wait to hear all your ideas about programming. All you’ve got to do is to leave a review in iTunes or wherever you’re listening to this podcast. You can also post on social media and tag me I am @tingchaowhen on Instagram. As always, you can find all resources in the show note at chaowenting.com/3. One last thing. Are you subscribed to my podcast? If you’re not, I want to encourage you to do that right away. Okay folks, I cannot wait to see you again next week at the same time, same place. Thanks for being here. I’ll talk to you again soon.